Are you still looking at audience engagement as just clicks, time on page or app downloads?
Sophie Van Oostvoorn, former editor-in-chief of C.Tru and Author of The Audience Dispatch, challenges this perception in our latest interview series Redefining Engagement. She shares invaluable insights on how newsrooms can move beyond the metrics to create real connections with their audience.
If you are too busy or not a big fan of watching recordings, here is an AI edited transcript made to easily skim through so you can browse at your convenience:
Francesca (00:29) Hi Sophie, thank you so much for joining me today to chat about engagement. I’m excited to hear your perspective, as your experience is a bit different from others I’ve spoken with.
Sophie (00:44) Thank you for inviting me. I’m looking forward to the conversation.
Francesca (00:50) Awesome! Can you start by giving us an introduction and a bit about your experience?
Sophie (00:59) Sure. I’m Sophie, and I’ve worked in journalism for about 10 years. For the last seven, I’ve focused on audience engagement projects in the broadest sense. I started at Het Parool, a Dutch newspaper in Amsterdam, then moved to NRC, a national newspaper. That’s where I began working in audience engagement, doing several projects. More recently, I was editor-in-chief of C. Tru, a project by Mediahuis (who also owns NRC). I’m currently between jobs, exploring new opportunities.
Francesca (01:49) What are you looking for right now?
Sophie (01:52) A job, of course! But I’m also looking for a place in journalism where I can help innovate for a more sustainable future – both editorially and commercially – ideally intertwined, because I think that’s very important.
Francesca (02:22) Definitely. Your experience is varied, with some national brands. Which have you enjoyed most before we dive into engagement?
Sophie (02:34) That’s a difficult question! Last year, I worked for a startup, building a new newsroom focused on Gen Z, which was great and I learned so much. But working at NRC with experienced journalists to explore engagement was also great. I don’t have a favorite.
Francesca (03:06) Fair enough. Let’s start with the tough questions: What is audience engagement to you?
Sophie (03:07) Okay. I think audience engagement used to be a separate part of journalism. When I started, I was the only one in the newsroom working on the relationship with readers from an editorial point of view. But now, at places like NRC, more people are involved. I think it’s rooted in many things you do as a journalist, from interviewing to posting articles on Instagram to get more readership. It’s in many forms of acting as a journalist.
Francesca (04:13) If it takes so many forms, what are the aims of audience engagement, in your opinion?
Sophie (04:17) It should be about understanding your audience and figuring out how to fulfill their needs. This can happen in so many ways, as it’s based in so many editorial practices.
Francesca (04:37) Has your view of audience engagement changed in the past few years? How so?
Sophie (04:41) Yes, a lot! When I started, I saw engagement more as a tool to get a bigger audience or retain subscribers. While that still works, it shouldn’t be the sole goal. It should be about understanding your audience, and you can’t understand them just by looking at numbers. A piece with lots of engagement or downloads doesn’t necessarily mean your audience likes it. You have to talk to your audience to really understand. I used to look at it more quantitatively, but now I think the relationship and conversations are more important than just counting downloads.
Francesca (05:43) That’s interesting, as many brands still see engagement as numbers. How do you measure audience engagement?
Sophie (05:51) We also looked at numbers, as that’s the nature of working in a large news organization. When looking at numbers, look at the trends, not just daily outcomes, because they fluctuate daily. When you look at trends you can get insights from the numbers. Being in touch with your audience helps a lot. I was always emailing with readers, getting a sense of how they saw our journalism. For example, when the war in Ukraine started, we got emails from readers feeling overwhelmed. You didn’t see that in the numbers because they were still reading the live blog.
Francesca (07:14) That’s interesting. How did that feedback impact your journalism?
Sophie (07:21) It was difficult to influence the overall strategy, but it made me talk differently about engagement numbers to the newsroom. A well-read article doesn’t mean your audience is happy; it can sometimes have a negative impact. It was about sharing that insight, rather than changing the overall strategy.
Francesca (08:04) Those types of insights require a lot of empathy from the newsroom. What are the other challenges or hurdles in engagement?
Sophie (08:47) First, it’s time. Most newsrooms don’t give journalists time to engage with the audience, beyond the numbers. There are also preconceptions about audiences: “They like this, they hate that.” People would ask which page in the paper people looked at first, based on hearsay. Overcoming those misconceptions is key. At NRC, we built a tool (inspired by the NYT) to ask readers for input on journalist research. This helped get input but also helped journalists see readers as sources, not just readers.
Francesca (10:11) Misconceptions are an interesting point. Any other examples, besides the one you just gave?
Sophie (10:21) A big one is the knowledge level of readers. NRC’s audience is highly educated, and so are the newsroom staff. Sometimes the journalism was too complicated. When we published articles that explained things from the beginning, like the war in Ukraine or the start of the pandemic, people really liked those. We sometimes think we need to offer something new but going back to the basics and explaining things can be helpful.
Francesca (11:53) Yeah, I love “Back to Basics.” Give me politics for dummies, please!
Sophie (11:56) Me too, sometimes! Sometimes, I’d read an article from NRC and feel like it was homework and like I was stupid because I didn’t understand the words.
Francesca (12:14) No one wants to feel that way! Let’s talk strategies and best practices. What strategies have been effective in engaging audiences?
Sophie (12:26) The tool we made for call-outs in articles worked well. We also used it to ask people to subscribe to a newsletter. A simple strategy was sending a quarterly email to subscribers, giving updates on the newsroom, new products etc. Readers really liked that insight into what we were doing.
Francesca (13:47) Tell me more about that – that transparency is powerful.
Sophie (13:58) It started from a brainstorm. I suggested an email to subscribers and we did it. Every newsletter focused on one topic. The first was about elections, with an editor writing about what they’d do differently. It was low-key, like “this is how we work”. We also highlighted changes we made in spelling or naming of countries. Readers are really sharp with those changes. And we also let them know of new podcasts or newsletters.
Francesca (15:26) It’s a powerful way of building trust by breaking down what happens in the newsroom. How did you get feedback?
Sophie (15:37) We added thumbs up and down buttons at the bottom of the email. We didn’t know how they’d respond, and over 90% gave a thumbs up!
Francesca (16:11) Fantastic! At what point in the process do you consider audience engagement?
Sophie (16:37) You can do it at many points. The best is at the beginning, like when starting a newsroom, asking people what they want. But if you’re working on an article or production, ask your audience what their questions are or what they didn’t understand. Some newsrooms include their audience in the editing process, but it slows things down. You can also ask for feedback when you’ve published something and do a follow-up. You can do it at any point in the process.
Francesca (17:43) Checking those assumptions at the beginning is something we miss a lot. It seems to come back to the assumptions that you’re making.
Sophie (17:50) Mm-hmm.
Francesca (17:57) Can you share successful initiatives that significantly boosted engagement? What made them successful?
Sophie (18:06) A crowdsourcing project on rewilding was very successful. We asked people to rewild a piece of their garden for a year and tell us what happened. We hoped for 1,000 to 2,000 participants, but got 10,000. It was a lot of work for me with lots of emails to answer, but the way people perceived the journalism we were doing was interesting. They were helping us make journalism. One participant emailed me saying “it’s nice to help you guys”.
Francesca (18:48) Wow.
Sophie (19:07) That made me think of someone I’d met years earlier who said “I’m a member of NRC.” It really resonated. Sometimes, journalists underestimate the commitment of the audience. It can go beyond just the business aspect of it.
Francesca (20:36) That resonates because we miss the emotional connection. People act when they care. And there are so many ways of getting people to care: The “why,” feeling part of something bigger. The fact you took one person’s comment and shared it with the editorial team is powerful.
Sophie (20:45) Mm-hmm.
Francesca (21:33) I want us to do that so much more.
Sophie (21:33) I think so too. It even goes beyond the emotional connection to a brand. You’re taught to leave emotion behind in journalism school and be very objective. But even objective news has an emotional impact on people. News is personal for a lot of people.
Francesca (22:16) 100%. A reflection of real life. I love that example of audiences getting in touch and sharing how they’re feeling. Any other examples?
Sophie (22:47) Reader comments on the NRC website are a good example. When I relaunched the comments, I learned that engagement isn’t about the numbers but about what people say. We initially looked at the number of comments and thought it was great, but no one was reading them. So I did an experiment: we closed comments on all articles but one, calling it the “conversation of the day.” We posed a question at the top of the comment section and I moderated the conversation.
Francesca (24:12) Mmm.
Sophie (24:33) We had a small group of subscribers that were commenting all the time, but 90% had never commented before. After doing this experiment, new names started popping up. This showed me that you have to set the tone when you want to engage with subscribers. Otherwise they’ll own it and only discuss things amongst themselves. It’s a good way to show if you put a little effort in your engagement strategy it can really gain you a lot and make people feel welcome.
Francesca (25:19) How powerful to get to a point where you can stop the extremes and get other people to get involved.
Sophie (25:26) That’s true.
Francesca (25:37) Is that one example that surprised you, or have you had any interactions with audiences where you were not expecting that?
Sophie (25:50) One of the first articles we opened for comments on was about vaccinations for kids, pre-COVID. One woman wrote a very personal experience, about 200 to 300 words. She’d lost her baby brother to a disease that we now have vaccines for. I was like, “Wow! Is this how much impact journalism makes on people?” It was so nice, but also sad.
Francesca (26:46) It’s okay, let’s talk about tech! When you were in the newsroom, what role has tech played in your audience engagement efforts – including AI or data analytics?
Sophie (27:26) Data was important to get a sense of what articles people read and when. The tools we used were a bit Windows 98, early versions of Talk from the Coral Project! It worked okay, but was a bit glitchy. When we started to get serious about audience engagement, I worked with our web developers to see how to better keep readers involved – e.g. notifications for new articles if they had commented previously. It’s very simple but it’s important and if you have to do that manually it’s forgotten. And while we weren’t using AI, we did use data to get insights.
Francesca (29:28) You mentioned sometimes things are missed when manual. Is that one of the biggest challenges?
Sophie (29:32) Yeah, sometimes.
Francesca (29:53) Any other examples of challenges or pitfalls that are stunting or stopping engagement initiatives?
Sophie (30:03) The crowdsourcing project had more participants than we thought, and I was sending 500 emails a day answering questions, which was a pitfall! Let me think of other pitfalls.
Francesca (30:25) Oof, Sophie! Would that stop you doing it in the first place? Would you have done anything differently?
Sophie (30:34) Well, I think one of the most important things is that the leadership in the newsroom has to really help you get your projects sold in. Not just enable, but really promote. Otherwise, it remains a side project, instead of rooted in the overall strategy. It’s not a one-person job but the job of all editors and journalists.
Francesca (31:32) I agree. Let’s delve into the “selling in” part. What does successful “selling in” a project look like?
Sophie (31:57) First, it’s explaining why it’s necessary to engage with your audience. That’s a big part of the audience engagement editor job. To convince people it’s not enough to just look at the numbers, you have to dive into the why, and talk to your audience. Also, you need to practice what you preach! Engage with readers yourself, don’t just let customer service do it. Call them sometimes, organize events. Those are things you can do if you’re in leadership.
Francesca (33:06) I love that. A bit about the future of audience engagement. Where do you see it heading in the next few years?
Sophie (33:17) It’d be great if we don’t talk about audience engagement as a separate thing. It should be embedded in how newsrooms work. Content creators on social media engage with their audience constantly and are much more personal in storytelling. So I hope audience engagement will be part of the editorial process – not just answering emails, but thinking “how can I make this resonate?” or “how can I involve them?”.
Francesca (34:14) We want these conversations to become second nature. Part of that is building the skills. What skills do media professionals need?
Sophie (34:59) It starts with being as curious about your audience as you are about the subject you’re reporting on. Get a better sense of the impact your journalism is making by checking out how others are doing it, what questions people have in the comments, and what formats work.
Don’t just investigate your subject but also the people you’re making the journalism for.
Francesca (35:45) Mmm, that’s powerful. That curiosity that you have for the subject, putting it elsewhere too.
Sophie (35:48) Yeah, well, I’ve got lots of friends in journalism who can be skeptical about my work. Or when I talk about constructive journalism, and they say “I’m doing investigative work and writing a big article – that’s enough.” I say “Why not include solutions?” You have to look at journalism in a different way to do audience engagement right.
Francesca (36:44) I totally agree. What impact has increasing audience engagement had on your organization’s bottom line or loyalty? What do you usually tell your friends?
Sophie (37:16) I ask them, if journalism isn’t to make an impact, why are you doing it at all? It’s for the public. If you don’t care about your audience, why do your job? Also, at NRC, when journalists interacted with the audience, they usually had a good experience. They had suggestions, and were like “they’re human beings.” Just start thinking about your audience for 30 minutes a day, and try to engage.
Francesca (38:34) Like me going to the gym. I don’t want to, but then I feel great afterwards. I’ve got one last question for you.
Sophie (38:37) This is great! I feel so energized!
Francesca (39:01) A little hack: Do you have an engagement hack for anyone starting out or looking at things differently?
Sophie (39:09) Just try! Just go and try something out. It’s important to engage, it doesn’t matter how.
Francesca (39:44) Remove the fear! Too many people are scared to start, you’re like, just do it! You’re a Nike advert!
Sophie (39:50) I’m wearing my Nikes! When you’re in a big newsroom with 100,000 or millions of subscribers, it can be overwhelming. But there are people there who are willing to help you do engagement.
Francesca (40:29) Sounds like an amazing problem if you’re getting those responses.
Sophie (40:33) Yeah, it is. But at NRC, it was weirdly a hurdle for journalists to reach out to the audience.
Francesca (40:45) Overwhelming.
Thank you for all of those examples, Sophie. I appreciate your time.
Sophie (41:00) That’s great. I love talking about audience engagement, so you can call me anytime!